tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post7575387020257150051..comments2023-12-30T01:44:58.368-08:00Comments on The Girl with the White Parasol: Citizen Kane Takes the StandAubynhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00446079492480611898noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-90512466455110122972012-09-16T22:58:22.298-07:002012-09-16T22:58:22.298-07:00Jim Lane: Jim, I think I can safely say that that ...Jim Lane: Jim, I think I can safely say that that is the sweetest and most generous compliment I have had in a while. I'll treasure it. Thank you.Aubynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00446079492480611898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-41977193126020543792012-09-15T01:51:25.125-07:002012-09-15T01:51:25.125-07:00Rachel, you say The Girl in the White Parasol repr...Rachel, you say The Girl in the White Parasol represents "a brief flash of beauty in a person's life"? Well then, that settles it: as this post and your others prove, for your readers, whether you intend it or not, you <i>are indeed</i> the Girl in the White Parasol. Over and over again. Case closed.Jim Lanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00981196894914646656noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-73360478227267043942011-11-23T08:23:44.073-08:002011-11-23T08:23:44.073-08:00Well, this is what I get for staying away for a fe...Well, this is what I get for staying away for a few days. People send me wonderful comments and I'm not there to respond!<br /><br />Angelnumber25: I treasure the memory; he was quite funny about it. It taught me never to assume that there were any "safe" spoilers. There's always someone who's surprised.<br /><br />Grandoldmovies: I agree with both your points and you wrote them beautifully. I especially like your idea of our intertwined film heritage. Yes, just how do you make a film stand on its own? No film begins in a vacuum. Hithcock himself was clearly influenced by Fritz Lang and Cecil B. DeMille and many others.Aubynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00446079492480611898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-21483002545453951612011-11-21T20:35:49.929-08:002011-11-21T20:35:49.929-08:00Such a great post, with so many wonderful points b...Such a great post, with so many wonderful points beautifully stated. Citizen Kane is like Hamlet, or like a Balanchine ballet, in that it's able to give up as much meaning as each viewer is able to put into it. And it's able to elicit such a broad spectrum of feeling (just compare Kael's and Bergman's views). <br /><br />One thing I noticed about Citizen Kane was how its very beginning, when the camera approaches the house of Xanadu (peeking through the metal gates, hesitating before a window, etc), is so similar to Hitchcock's opening for Rebecca, made the year before--which also begins with the<br />camera approaching a forbidding house (Manderley), and using similar imagery. So much of our film heritage is so closely intertwined, which is another reason why it's impossible to rank films.<br /><br />I once read that late in his life Orson Welles refused ever to discuss or even mention Citizen Kane. It seems such a sad personal legacy for this brilliant film.grandoldmovieshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10773085288675763855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-32058714267844635482011-11-21T18:51:45.047-08:002011-11-21T18:51:45.047-08:00Wonderful post! Your points are all very well-writ...Wonderful post! Your points are all very well-written. I agree with it being a futile argument to try and rank films in any sort of greatness order. <br />I love the short story about your friend as well. I had a similar experience with a friend who watched it with me for the first time. Her response was more like, "Huh, so can you explain what Rosebud is then?" I shook my head and said it's something that changes for me every time I watch this film. <br />Thank you again for such a lovely post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-35085667054362594022011-11-17T08:34:35.098-08:002011-11-17T08:34:35.098-08:00Hello Rachel,
No problem - I've always wanted...Hello Rachel,<br /><br />No problem - I've always wanted to discuss this film with someone who loves it, because I've never been able to see that side of Kane. You've definitely let me see that side that was a bit vague before. *shakes*<br /><br />Take care, wonderful blog, wonderful article!<br />David.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13663307297137754243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-54946534524206030932011-11-16T23:03:01.115-08:002011-11-16T23:03:01.115-08:00David: I'm always up for discussion. As to whe...David: I'm always up for discussion. As to whether <i>Citizen Kane</i> is a gripping story, well I'd agree that it's not suspenseful in any traditional sense. I find it more...mesmerizing. The film I might compare it to is <i>Barry Lyndon</i>, in which plenty of events happen in a protagonist's life, but rather than carry us along on a journey, the tension comes from internal, rather than external sources. The mystery of what's inside these characters, the tension between the traditional narrative and the way it's told. I realize I'm getting a little vague and abstract here, but bear with me. I'd say <i>Barry Lyndon</i> is even <i>remote</i> than <i>Kane</i>, which by contrast is much warmer and more immediately accessible. <br /><br />I find it a little surreal (but funny) that I have apparently landed on the side of arguing in favor of <i>distant</i> characters when normally, I consider myself someone who likes to feel close to the characters on screen. I guess in this case, I think it suits the material. Especially when that material is beautifully filmed and crafted.<br /><br />*reaches across the aisle for a handshake* Take care of yourself as well, sir.Aubynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00446079492480611898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-55715559169451174182011-11-16T09:57:49.706-08:002011-11-16T09:57:49.706-08:00Hello Rachel,
Haha, no problem! After all, that&#...Hello Rachel,<br /><br />Haha, no problem! After all, that's what these topics are for, to discuss aren't they? ;)<br /><br />Like you say, and "exciting story" is really subjective. To me, CK just didn't have the suspense necessary to hold a story together. It seemed to fall very flat. I'm not expecting a Hitchcock film here, but CK seems a far cry to anything related. It seems to keep plodding along, not going anywhere, not solving anything. It's actually one of the few films I've seen, told in a flash back, that isn't gripping. I'm actually very surprised to hear you say you were on the edge of your seat - you're the first person that I've come across that has felt that way about it. To me, you could almost fall asleep watching it, unlike it's competitors. With films like Casablanca or It's a Wonderful Life, you're actually cheering for someone. How will they solve this? What will happen? CK is almost like a biography or documentary. What happens, happens. I feel like I have to bring back "distance" here. It's a feeling like you can't get to know the person, you aren't even given the chance. There's no one to love - pure cold. As you say, it is subjective. :)<br /><br />I imaging that if one thoroughly analyzed every aspect of CK's plot, perhaps you'd find a great story, although so far I have yet to see that great story. But if it takes this level to truly appreciate this film, should it be a candidate for best film ever? <br /><br />As for the talented cast, they were definitely not talentless. In fact, I think Comingore's role was one of the best, even better than Welles'. But there are no great stars in CK. Let's look at Casablanca or It's a Wonderful Life. In the former, you have 2 fantastic stars, one of the best (Bogart and Bergman). Complimented by? Claude Raines, Paul Henreid, Peter Lorre, Sydney Greenstreet, Conrad Veidt...can you get a better cast? <br /><br />In It's a Wonderful Life you have Jimmy Stewart, another unmatchable, followed by Donna Reed, Lionel Barrymore, Thomas Mitchel, Henry Travers, Gloria Grahame, Ward Bond...another great cast. <br /><br />Now look at CK. Who do we have? Orson Welles, sure. Joseph Cotten. OK. Anyone else? A few familiar names here and there, but not up to par with Casablanca or It's a Wonderful Life - or most any of the other "great" films out there.<br /><br />I guess to me, Citizen Kane is great because of it's technical side, but when it comes to the story, the plotline, the actors - definitely lacking. But that's my opinion - subjective as you say. :)<br /><br />Take care,<br />David.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13663307297137754243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-6847123459121237132011-11-16T09:39:50.210-08:002011-11-16T09:39:50.210-08:00Shamus: "Welles' movies often have this p...Shamus: "Welles' movies often have this peculiar and complicated sense of the past: the narrator is almost always in the present and the past is always irrevocable: what they are left with is nostalgia and an entrapment within the present." That was a beautifully-put thought, Shamus, thank you. Right-click and saving that in my memory bank.Aubynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00446079492480611898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-7466191162055211812011-11-15T20:44:49.760-08:002011-11-15T20:44:49.760-08:00Rachel, maybe the distance you are referring to is...Rachel, maybe the distance you are referring to is <i>Kane's </i> sense of the past; it's not just that we are left with a certain distance from the characters: there is a kind of double filter here. From the way they tell the story, the characters themselves seem stranded from their past; the second filter is of course Welles' narration. <br /><br />Welles' movies often have this peculiar and complicated sense of the past: the narrator is almost always in the present and the past is always irrevocable: what they are left with is nostalgia and an entrapment within the present. Hence that fantastic line- "You know, Mr. Bernstein, if I hadn't been very rich, I might have been a really great man." Or of course that little anecdote about the girl with the white parasol.Shamushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02024928978834924277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-81213829471213782682011-11-15T19:27:11.104-08:002011-11-15T19:27:11.104-08:00FlickChick: Nice to see one of my favorite comment...FlickChick: Nice to see one of my favorite commenters around here. :)Aubynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00446079492480611898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-3155070777978994972011-11-15T19:26:17.403-08:002011-11-15T19:26:17.403-08:00David: Thanks for the detailed and very polite reb...David: Thanks for the detailed and very polite rebuttal. It's a pleasure to have someone debate my points so thoroughly. My choice to focus more on story than technical aspects wasn't entirely deliberate, it's just how the piece turned out.<br /><br />It's funny, I was just over at Krell Laboratories, talking about how I feel "distant" from the characters in <i>Citizen Kane</i>. In this case, though, the distance doesn't bother me. I find it appropriate to what is (at least for me) one of the story's main points: you can't really know a person.<br /><br />Hmm...I guess "exciting story" is really subjective. I don't know, to me <i>CK</i> has so much to it, horror and surrealism and tragedy, that it glues to me to my seat.<br /><br />As for talented cast, why yes, that is what I would say. I think Dorothy Comingore gives a great performance and I adore Everett Sloane (who was even more memorable in <i>The Lady from Shanghai</i>). And what about Agnes Moorehead? They were newcomers to film, but hardly <i>talentless</i>.<br /><br />I adore quite a few Capra films, but I'm not sure if there's one that ponders the same questions that <i>Citizen Kane</i> does. Most of them seem to me to be more about moral choices and lost or delayed dreams (with strongly defined characters at the center of it). <i>CK</i> is less concerned with the outcomes of those moral choices and more concerned with how such a story gets told, why a person tells it a certain way, and how something as complicated as a human being can be squished into story form. I think both Capra and Welles made some great, classic films, but I think they had very different storytelling concerns. Glad to have them both.<br /><br />At any rate, as I've said before, sometimes the chemistry ain't there and no amount of talking will change it. I've been in your shoes with a lot of other "greatest ever" films, so believe me, I understand. But I am very glad you decided to stop in and add to the discussion. Hope to see you again.Aubynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00446079492480611898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-60766260294802750882011-11-15T17:30:07.852-08:002011-11-15T17:30:07.852-08:00A perfect entry. Just beautiful. And not a day goe...A perfect entry. Just beautiful. And not a day goes by that I don't think of that girl with the white parasol!FlickChickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17351624749230610755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-19787131412734773522011-11-15T14:10:55.450-08:002011-11-15T14:10:55.450-08:00Hello Rachel,
First of all, wonderful article - a...Hello Rachel,<br /><br />First of all, wonderful article - absolutely wonderful! Your points come across with beautiful precision. Now, as you probably know, I'm not the greatest CK lover. I have to admit though that I agree with much of what you've written in this article - gave me a lot to think about - things that other articles really didn't. I'm so glad you decided to focus on the "story more than the visuals". Refreshing, as most of the other articles I've read focus on the technical side of Kane. <br /><br />I guess your main point is that CK "combines all the elements we look for in a film..."<br /><br />However, I'm afraid I have to disagree there, especially in regard to CK's "exciting story", and "talented cast". The story itself is non-impressive. Numerous great films have far better stories that capture their audience in a way CK can't. CK, at least to me, has a distant feel to it. A film that's hard to connect to - which isn't so with other great classics such as Casablanca. <br /><br />Like I mentioned above, I also disagree with the talented cast. Aside from Orson Welles and Joseph Cotten (which launched JC's career), there were no great stars. Most all of the supporting cast were relatively new to the business. Welles himself wanted new faces for his new film.<br /><br />I absolutely agree with your statement "The mystery is not in the events of the plot, but in pondering the question of what lies at the heart of a human being.". <br /><br />So very true about CK. But aren't there other great films that accomplish the same goal in a much simpler fashion? A much more approachable manner? Less distant? Frank Capra's films may be an example here.<br /><br />I don't know, I guess Citizen Kane didn't strike me the way it did you, but you've certainly shed new light on this film. Citizen Kane is definitely a great film - one of the greatest. Thanks for writing this up, definitely going to keep up to date with this blog!<br /><br />Take care,<br />David.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13663307297137754243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-58435901763764284332011-11-14T22:25:43.819-08:002011-11-14T22:25:43.819-08:00Shamus: I'll have to hunt up that second revie...Shamus: I'll have to hunt up that second review, thanks for clarifying. I don't think the ending sucks but it would be hard for me to disqualify a film from greatness just for the ending. Plenty of otherwise classic Hollywood films have weak endings, due to strict Hay Code enforcement and the plot tangles it caused.<br /><br />And I shouldn't be too hard on Crowther. I find his moral indignations kind of endearing in hindsight, though I'd probably feel differently if I'd been around back in the day and got a taste of his bullying.Aubynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00446079492480611898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-39804886078968641212011-11-14T22:06:21.973-08:002011-11-14T22:06:21.973-08:00I think Crowther wrote a second review a week late...I think Crowther wrote a second review a week later, in which he revised his opinion and pointed to the ending, proclaiming thus: "Kane cannot be a great movie because of the ending kinda sucks." Or in words similar thereto. Although I'm always moved by the ending, possibly because of the grandiloquence (the chimneys, the smoke, the swelling score- ah, Herr Herrmann). That all-men-kill-the-thing-they-love implication made a huge impression when I was a teenager.<br /><br />And thanks for the compliment.Shamushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02024928978834924277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-83533823782727682232011-11-14T21:42:07.147-08:002011-11-14T21:42:07.147-08:00Shamus: Nice to see you in these here parts. I was...Shamus: Nice to see you in these here parts. I was thinking today of a phrase that TV critic Alan Sepinwall liked to use about <i>The Wire</i>: "It teaches you how to watch it." I think the same can be said for <i>Citizen Kane</i>. It encourages you to distrust, to be confused and to question so that by the time the secret is revealed (which Welles himself derided as a "dollar-book Freudian gag"), you should already have stopped the Easter egg hunt.<br /><br />Ah, Bosley Crowther. I'm looking at the review now. "At least it brings to mind one deeply moral thought: For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?" Poor man, sometimes he out-Crowthers himself.<br /><br />I think you're quite right about what makes a good list. The AFI is so...timid. Doesn't risk a thing. And considering that the stakes involved in movie criticism are, honestly, set pretty low, then that's really, really timid. And seriously, putting <i>The Sixth Sense</i> on it? Do I have to start braining people with the Val Lewton box set?<br /><br />Thanks for the comments, everybody!Aubynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00446079492480611898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-53479085974584251042011-11-14T20:55:48.621-08:002011-11-14T20:55:48.621-08:00Wonderful Post, Ms. R. It's been a long time s...Wonderful Post, Ms. R. It's been a long time since I've seen <i>Kane</i> (and that only three or so times) but I loved how you pin down our first sensation when approaching the movie- it is a very strange experience; the movie makes no concessions to the viewer- we are forced accept the movie on its own terms or not at all. <br /><br />Also, it sounds like your friend had the same reaction to the ending that Bosley Crowther had back in '41. Humbly though, I would suggest that <i>Casablanca</i> and <i>Wind</i> simply do not survive the comparison. <br /><br />But, to shoplift your analogy and push it a little further, I think <i>Kane</i> ought to be displaced by <i>Ambersons</i> at the pinnacle like <i>Lear</i> replaced <i>Hamlet</i> in critical opinion as the "greatest"- it would also fulfill the instructive value of a good list: if there is no time to see all the movies, then it can tell you what movies to focus on. A good list, mind. Not that bullshit hawked by AFI.Shamushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02024928978834924277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-63868185845413254492011-11-14T19:51:25.722-08:002011-11-14T19:51:25.722-08:00Karen: Your kind words have so flustered me that I...Karen: Your kind words have so flustered me that I'm left staring at my toes and blushing. Aw shucks, ma'am.Aubynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00446079492480611898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-36299392618290275692011-11-14T18:41:04.313-08:002011-11-14T18:41:04.313-08:00Simply outstanding. I'm grateful to True Class...Simply outstanding. I'm grateful to True Classics for the fun I experienced in writing my own entry for the debate, but I'm even happier that it introduced me to your most awesome blog. I'm off to read some more stuff . . .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-32808361505046524972011-11-14T17:05:54.317-08:002011-11-14T17:05:54.317-08:00Martin: Thank you so much for your comments. I not...Martin: Thank you so much for your comments. I noticed as I was going through the debate entries that not many people are arguing that we <i>should</i> nominate one movie as the best ever. I think it's one of those conventions that we all know is nonsense and yet we can't help making those lists. And arguing over them. Glad to talk to another <i>Citizen Kane</i> fan!Aubynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00446079492480611898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-47709153977163757012011-11-14T15:19:21.331-08:002011-11-14T15:19:21.331-08:00Rachel, of all the entries I've read for the C...Rachel, of all the entries I've read for the CK blogathon, yours comes the closest to how I feel about CK. It wasn't until this blogathon happened that I realized people didn't care for it all that much. I'm on the "love" side of that fence, and *completely* agree that we can't nominate ONE movie as the best one ever. Like you said so succinctly: "Casablanca is the ultimate cinematic escape and Gone With the Wind is the ultimate cinematic event, but Citizen Kane is the ultimate cinematic quest." BRAVO!Martin Turnbullhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17601007841962086724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-79903848851661663622011-11-14T09:18:35.680-08:002011-11-14T09:18:35.680-08:00Jill: Thanks for your kind words. I'll pop ove...Jill: Thanks for your kind words. I'll pop over to read your entry now.<br /><br />StanwyckFan: Wow, you're very nice. Especially since I just went and disagreed with you in pretty near every way. :) I really enjoyed reading your dissenting opinion on the film.<br /><br />Page: It seems like most people I know fall somewhere in the middle with <i>Citizen Kane</i>. The consensus of my entire family was "Good but not great." And I really should read up on Hearst and Davies. I know so little about them but they truly were fascinating people.<br /><br />Vulnavia: Hmm...to this I can only say, "pshaw, Madam." Considering just how many people have weighed in on Kane over the years, I'd be surprised if anything I said was truly unique. Now I'm off to read your article!Aubynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00446079492480611898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-54603301336894810742011-11-14T09:12:08.854-08:002011-11-14T09:12:08.854-08:00Laura: Thanks for that thoughtful and detailed com...Laura: Thanks for that thoughtful and detailed comment. For me, <i>Casablanca</i> and <i>Gone With the Wind</i> feel like examples of studio-era filmmaking at its finest. A bunch of talented people brought together and working like a well-oiled machine. I love that kind of filmmaking, obviously, or I wouldn't be writing about classic film, but they don't have that <i>Kane</i> quality of surprise. For me, watching <i>Casablanca</i> is like dropping in on old friends and <i>Gone With the Wind</i> is like going on a big holiday trip but <i>Kane</i> is a more...personal experience, for lack of a better word.Aubynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00446079492480611898noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3193750673421600279.post-10773423320540698892011-11-14T04:57:06.348-08:002011-11-14T04:57:06.348-08:00Get out of my head!!!Get out of my head!!!Vulnavia Morbiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04722740955194993451noreply@blogger.com